How to Connect with Your Heart (And Get Out of Your Head) with Katie Hendricks

What if the reason you struggle to speak from your heart isn’t because you don't know what to say, but because you've forgotten how to connect with yourself first? Most of us want deeper connection, but we’re so stuck in our heads, running on adrenaline instead of presence.

This week, Gervase sits down with best-selling author and international consultant Katie Hendricks to explore how to make the journey from head to heart and discover the practical tools that make authentic connection possible.

Katie reveals why most of us are walking around “from the neck up,” running on adrenaline instead of presence, and how this disconnection affects everything—from how we show up with our partners, to how we navigate conflict, to how we experience our own lives. She shares practical tools for reconnecting with your body, giving yourself nourishing attention, and moving through the world with your heart open, even when it feels scary.

Listen to this episode now to discover:

• The simple “hmm” technique that shifts you from criticism to curiosity (and opens the pathway between your head and heart)

• Why most people live “from the neck up” and how this keeps you running on adrenaline instead of true presence

• Katie’s “loop of awareness” practice—how to circulate attention between yourself and others so you don’t get lost in your head, or lost in others

• How to ask yourself “How am I experiencing this in my body right now?” and why this question changes everything

• Why opening your heart feels scary and how to move around the fear instead of forcing through it

• The difference between giving attention from adrenaline versus presence and why one nourishes while the other depletes

• How to separate “stuff talk” and “heart talk” so business doesn't block heart connection with your partner

• How to shift from seeing your partner as a “fixer upper” to an evolving work of art

• The game-changing concept of a “no blame relationship” and how to create one

---

Follow Gervase

• 📲 Let’s hang out on IG: http://www.instagram.com/gervasekolmos

• ✨ Want to go deeper (and get juicy discounts)? Sign up to Gervase’s newsletter: https://www.gervasekolmos.com

Connect with Katie Hendricks

• Be. Play. Love Podcast: https://beplaylove.com/

• Love and Relationship products: www.heartsintrueharmony.com

• Hendricks Institute: www.hendricks.com

How to Connect with Your Heart (And Get Out of Your Head) with Katie Hendricks

Episode Full Transcript

Gervase: All right, everybody, welcome back to the Modern Phoenix Podcast. I have brought you a bit of a legend today. Katie Hendricks is here with us to share a beautiful conversation. Katie, it is beyond an honor to be here across from you. Thank you so much for your time and your work in the world.

Katie: Oh, thank you. It’s my pleasure. Having this way of connecting with people when we’re not in the same place has been so exciting. We can have these conversations and share presence no matter where we are in the world. I think it’s one of the best things about technology.

Gervase: Agree. And you are such a connector in the way you show up. I’m really in love with your podcast.

Katie: Oh, thank you.

Gervase: Your podcast is so good. I literally listened to one of the episodes twice because the way you speak about relationships is so refreshing. It’s grounded, wise, and something I really respond well to.

I have to say—the first personal growth book I ever read was The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks, your husband, which I’m pretty sure you influenced quite a lot.

Katie: Yes, yes, yes.

Gervase: It’s wild to be here with you 11 years later after reading that book. Let me read your bio so people can come into our world, and then let’s dive in.

Katie Hendricks, bestselling author and international consultant, has been an evolutionary catalyst, contextual disruptor, and freelance mentor for over half a century. She’s passionate about our ability to give and receive more nourishing attention and loving play in all aspects of our lives.

Her purpose: I feel through to the heart with laser love and evoke essence through deep play.

So beautiful.

Katie: Thank you so much. It took me several years to really land on, “This is what I do.” Because you go to parties or conventions, and people ask, “Who are you?” Usually people say, “I am a writer, I am a coach.” But I wanted to say, “Here’s what I do in the world.” And that always leads to, “Oh, how do you do that?” It opens a conversation rather than putting me in a category.

Gervase: That is so good to hear. I truly struggle with that question depending on my environment. When I first became certified as a life coach 11 years ago, it was so edgy for me. The word “life” in front of it—like, I’m going to coach you through life—felt so pretentious. I would panic when someone asked me.

Over the last decade I’ve changed a lot, added modalities and passions to my portfolio, but I still freeze depending on who’s asking. Like yesterday, the window guy was here and said, “What do you do?” I said, “I help women untangle who they are from who the world told them to be.”

That is what I do, but I cannot land it. It sounds like the train is still leaving the station. Part of me feels really nervous about it.

Katie: I’ve found that if I move from a noun—“I am a”—to a verb, it makes a big difference in how I experience myself. It also creates a connection. If I say, “I facilitate, I assist, I guide, I consult,” those are verbs. “I am a” fixes you. Verbs are my favorite. I forget who said it, but I love the quote: “I think I am a verb.”

Gervase: I love it. As you were saying the verbs, I checked in with my body and felt a sense of wonder and play. That kind of kicks us off.

You are really an expert in so many things. In your bio, when you wrote about connecting with the heart, I thought that was really interesting. Let’s start there, if that’s okay with you.

I have some brilliant friends, and one therapist friend once told me: when she’s in a conversation and struggling to explain herself, she closes her eyes, puts her hand on her heart, and says, “I wish you could feel what’s in my heart right now, because in my heart I feel…” Even as I say that, it makes me emotional.

Some people listening will roll their eyes, but for others, the idea of communicating through the heart might feel foreign. How would you recommend someone start? Like, if you’re in a conversation and not connecting, the words aren’t landing, and you want to cut through and speak from the heart—you have to first access it in yourself. How can people do that?

Katie: I’d say the main thing people struggle with in relationships is making the trip from head to heart to body. It’s like a canyon. Many people say, “I don’t know what I’m feeling.” Or, “I know what I’m feeling, but I don’t know what to do about it.”

The big move is including the rest of your body. When people are talking about an issue, I ask, “How are you experiencing that in your body right now?” Even if they don’t have an answer, they have to do something—they have to make that trip and inquire. That’s the move, and most people need to make it many times.

What helps is curiosity. The sound hmm moves us from our critical brain into our wonder brain.

Gervase: Oh my God, I just did it. I went, hmm.

Katie: Exactly. That sound opens the highway—your throat, your breathing, your ability to speak. Hmm relaxes your throat, so you’re not gripping to say the right thing. It allows you to think better. So I suggest: hmm.

Another thing is to take slower breaths. That moves you out of fight/flight/freeze/faint into presence. Then, I like to have people share something they appreciate about themselves. For example, I might say, “I appreciate the quality of your voice—when I hear it, I find myself relaxing.”

Sharing appreciation opens the space to be with ourselves more fully. Because most people live from the neck up—in their heads, in their phones, thinking about life rather than experiencing it. They don’t move. Kids learn through movement, but adults suppress that playfulness and spontaneity. So I ask people to shrug their shoulders or feel their feet, just to experience their body directly.

Opening the heart is scary for many people because they’ve been wounded. So I don’t go directly for the heart. I move around it with breath, movement, appreciation. It lets people know however they are is welcome.

Gervase: Thank you. That felt like hearing someone describe focalizing—the body-based modality I’m trained in. The journey you described is almost identical.

In focalizing, we repeat: no shame, no blame, no expectation, no pressure. Just show up however you are. It sounds cheesy, but giving someone permission to be as they are—even anxious or disconnected from their heart—is a big deal.

Katie: It is. We grow up in environments where rules matter more than presence. “Look good, be nice, don’t say anything if it’s not nice.” Spontaneity gets suppressed.

Letting people know however you are is welcome—that’s the biggest gift. I use the image of sitting with a friend on a porch swing, just rocking together. That slows down the anxious stuff and lets essence emerge.

I’ve even asked people to invent how they like to retreat when it’s too much—like building a fort or creating a safe space. That makes a huge difference.

Gervase: Yes. I was told I was “too sensitive” growing up, and now I know that’s my superpower.

Katie: Exactly. Sensitivity lets us find the little windows where people are closed off. Presence trickles through the cracks like water. And instead of saying, “There’s nothing to be scared of,” we let people feel safe through our own presence. That thaws the ice, lets energy flow, and brings us back to being enough.

Gervase: It also shifts us from achievement fueled by adrenaline—which is empty—to nourishment through oxytocin and connection.

Katie: Yes. One of the practices I use is the loop of awareness: shifting attention between yourself and others. Inside, it looks like noticing a sensation and being curious instead of critical. With others, it’s noticing them, then noticing yourself. It keeps circulation going.

When I use loop of awareness, I can teach ten-day trainings and end up more vital than when I started, because I’m constantly refilling myself. It’s like an attention pump.

Gervase: I love that. My friend Edie Allen, a Big Leap facilitator, taught loop of awareness and essence pacing at my retreat last year. It’s so approachable.

In my Inner Knowing Mastermind, I emphasize resourcing. But it can sound too cognitive. Loop of awareness feels more natural—like a constant rhythm: in to me, out to you, back to me. It’s not time-blocked self-care. It’s moment by moment.

With my three kids, I see how much better my days flow when I check in with myself throughout: Do I need water? Do I need to slow down? That’s embodiment. That’s sustainable.

Katie: Yes. And if you add a quiet hmm when you shift, it brings curiosity instead of criticism.

Most people are “outies” with attention, always outward. So just shift the other direction. That’s the basic skill. You can also play with rhythm—fast, slow, alternating. It wakes up the witness inside you, who can say, “Oh honey, you’re anxious. Let’s be with that.” Often, acknowledgment and a breath is all that’s needed.

Gervase: That reminds me of saying “I’m fine” with a broken hip.

Katie: Exactly! Years ago, I fell off my bike and broke my hip. Within five minutes, fire trucks and ambulances were there. They asked, “Are you all right?” and I said, “I’m fine.” Automatic. Even with a broken hip. That’s how ingrained it is.

Gervase: Yes. “Don’t mind me, just a broken hip.”

Katie: Right. But when you learn loop of awareness, you stop draining yourself. You can give from fullness. And attention becomes nourishing instead of fear-based.

Gervase: That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about relationships. You and Gay have been married how long?

Katie: We’ve been together 45 years, married 43.

Gervase: Wow. You clearly figured things out. You’ve said presence and attention open love and creativity—but what about when stuff gets in the way? Like resentment, exhaustion, decades of disconnection?

Katie: We created two conversations for couples: the stuff talk and the heart talk. Ten minutes each. Stuff talk is for the business of life—schedules, toilets, dishes. Heart talk is for sharing experience and appreciation.

This structure keeps the business from overwhelming the relationship. When you know you’ll have a business meeting, your body relaxes. It takes a couple of months to get into rhythm, but it’s worth it.

Another big shift is seeing your partner not as an improvement project but as an evolving work of art. Commit to appreciating. Whenever you catch yourself criticizing, move to appreciation. Research shows you need at least five appreciations for every criticism. We chose a no-blame relationship years ago, and it’s been transformative.

Gervase: I love that. I tell clients—it’s never about the dishes. It’s about connection.

Katie: Exactly. If dishes are an issue, schedule a stuff talk. But heart talk keeps love flowing.

We also teach couples to drop words and use sounds and gestures when they’re triggered. It often turns funny. Or we’ll have partners put their hands together and go, “Na-na-na-na-na-na.” That’s what all power struggles are. Then you laugh, melt the adrenaline, and reconnect.

Gervase: Yes. It brings you back to why you’re together. You didn’t marry for a clean sink.

Katie: Right. You marry for love, fun, and co-creativity. A relationship is like a team, like a great sports team. Everyone becomes an expression of the whole. Out of that “we space,” new ideas and creations emerge.

Gervase: And resentment dissolves when you shift from blame to appreciation. Instead of demanding they change, you get curious: what happens if I shift to appreciation?

Katie: Yes. And when in doubt, it’s probably fear. Befriend fear, and the energy caught in fight/flight becomes available. Sometimes just saying, “I feel scared” (not “I feel scared because you…”) shifts everything.

Gervase: Thank you so much for your wisdom. We’ll link your books, websites, and materials in the show notes.

Katie: Thank you. What a pleasure to co-create with you.

Gervase: I want to acknowledge you. The little one in me is grateful for your mother energy—nurturing, loving, grounded, wise. I soaked it up. Thank you for your presence today.

Katie: Thank you.

Gervase: Tell everyone how they can find you.

Katie: We have two websites: hendricks.com for seminars, coaching, and relationship resources; and foundationforconsciousliving.org for dozens of free videos on breathing, essence pace, loop of awareness, and more. Our nonprofit offers programs on restoring resourcefulness and creating caring community.

We also share on my podcast Be Play Love with my partner Sophie.

Gervase: It’s so good. Your relationship with her is lovely to listen to. We’ll link all that in the show notes. Thank you again, Katie.

Katie: Thank you.

Stay or Go? Healing Relationship Patterns with Katarina Polonska

For this week’s podcast, I brought along a friend… high-performance relationship coach and gender dynamics social scientist, Katarina Polonska! In this episode, we discuss how to make the difficult decision of whether to stay or leave a relationship, how to navigate messy power struggles, and how to move from individualism to collaboration to build stronger, more connected relationships. Yep, we cover it all!

Watch this episode now to discover:

• The #1 way to get clarity on whether you should stay or leave a relationship (hint: the result is win-win: you either transform the relationship or you leave and find someone who is more aligned)

• The 6-month strategy to "clean up your side of the street" and find undeniable clarity

• The blame game that often happens in the power struggle phase of a relationship when our wounds (aka: sneaky unaddressed demons) like to come out

• The responsibility we have to try and understand our partner's needs and to hold them AND ours with equal importance

• How we've moved away from being collaborative in relationships to being individualistic and believing our needs matter more than our partners

• A mindset shift that can help you have a better relationship with your in-laws and extended family (even if you couldn't be more yin and yang!)

About Katarina Polonska:

Katarina is a high-performance relationship coach and gender dynamics social scientist who specializes in helping people make clear relationship decisions. Her expertise in attachment theory, behavioral science of attraction, and the cultural influences on relationships provides a unique framework for understanding and transforming relationship patterns.

---

Follow Gervase

• Connect with Gervase on Instagram to get her best scroll-stopping insights: http://www.instagram.com/gervasekolmos

• And for even more wisdom (and juicy discounts), sign up to her newsletter so you never miss out: https://www.gervasekolmos.com

Stay or Go? Healing Relationship Patterns with Katarina Polonska

Episode Full Transcript

All right, my loves—welcome back to the Modern Phoenix podcast. I brought you a friend, my new Czech bestie, Katarina Polonska. She’s going to talk to us about relationships. Katarina, would you introduce yourself? Then we’ll dive into all the juicy goodness.

Katarina: Absolutely. I’m Katarina. I’m a high-performance relationship coach and a gender dynamics social scientist. I help people with their romantic relationships and also do corporate work to improve professional dynamics. I specialize in what I call the behavioral science of attraction—really looking at what you’re attracting into your life on an unconscious level from a relational point of view, what you actually need to attract to be happy long-term, and how to do that. Think behavioral science meets law of attraction, working with the subconscious mind, and understanding your patterns: your core wounds, how you might be creating dysfunction in your relationships. I specialize in attachment theory, gender dynamics, and cultural/societal/familial conditioning, and I help people recondition their brains to work for them so they can have healthy, happy, secure, meaningful relationships.

A big subset of my work is helping people decide whether to stay or go in their romantic relationship. That was my dilemma for a long time with my ex-fiancé. I spent years unsure—“Is it me? Is it him? Is it the relationship?”—doing couples counseling, feeling frustrated by the process. I did end up leaving that relationship; I met my husband less than a year later. Now I help people figure out that decision, which is always influenced by conditioning, wounded parts, and limiting beliefs—helping them see the relationship clearly so they can make the best decision for them, knowing they’ve put in their all, cleaned up their side of the street, and can look back with integrity. They didn’t make a wounded decision, they didn’t jump and run, and they didn’t stay unnecessarily; they made a healthy, empowered, clear choice.

Gervase: Yes. I’ve been getting that a lot in my practice lately. I always say there are three big decisions: Should I quit my job? Should I leave my marriage? Should I become a mom?

Katarina: I help with the career question too—it’s similar to the marriage question. I worked with the COO of a global bank—making well into the millions, extremely young at 45—who said, “It’s like I’m in a toxic marriage with my job. I’ve got golden handcuffs, don’t want to leave, but I’m being abused and mistreated.” Where do I go next?

Gervase: So important—and so understandable that so many people are confused: Is it me or the systems? Me or the relationship? That’s the thread I hear. I was listening to you on another podcast, and while our modalities are different, I think we share frameworks for getting people to the other side—like you said, cleaning up your side of the fence. I’d love to hear more. Years ago I had a client in the “Should I leave my marriage?” boat. It was rough. There was anger, resentment, frustration: “It’s not fair—he’s not doing the work, won’t go to counseling.” I told her what I still feel now: “We’re not doing this for him. We’re doing this so you feel so clear about what’s right for you—that you gave this everything, that you’re aligned and coherent, no shoulds in the room, heart open and protected—so you can make a decision from that place.” Yes, it’s great when two people work on it, but the first thread (my old podcast was called It’s All Me) is being grounded and deconditioned in yourself.

Katarina: One hundred percent—and that’s actually the hardest thing. I’d done 15 years of therapy. I was already a trained coach, mindfulness teacher, had been to tons of retreats. My father worked with people like Joe Dispenza; I grew up in that world. I worked in behavioral science; I was a regional VP at a behavioral science company. Of all people, you’d think I could be grounded and figure it out. I’d also healed anorexia twice. And yet I’d sit here in Vancouver, meditating, and every day the question plagued me: “What do I do? Is it me? Is it him?” I was ruminating—extremely anxious—my gut firing signals I couldn’t discern.

My relationship coach then, the phenomenal Lisa Page, kept saying, “Get clear: Are you projecting past wounding onto this relationship, or are you responding to the present moment in real time?” I struggled to do that. I couldn’t see through my own fog—because your brain won’t let you see what you’re not ready to see, and I didn’t realize how much conditioning was playing in. I also didn’t know the full extent of the truth. It’s usually a gray area of both. But you still have power to clear your side of the street, to show up as best you can, and to try to inspire your partner to change versus nagging or cajoling (which won’t work). Reframe it. Give it a final six months—don’t drag it out for years. Be intentional with how you show up. Clean up your side; that’ll take at least a couple of months. Then own how you’re showing up with them, and look for data points: What do you need to see to know you’ll actually stay?

That helped me. Within that six-month window, I looked around and thought, “This isn’t enough for me.” I kept surrendering and praying for a sign—really wanting a final little kick to move me. I got a real kick—the clarity I needed—right at that six-month mark. I’d come so far; even our relationship had improved, but I prayed for clarity and then got it so loud and clear the decision was a no-brainer. I couldn’t have gotten there without that process. If I’d decided sooner, I’d have regretted it and never known. Now I’m in a healthy relationship. And to your point with your client: this approach is a win-win. You either up-level yourself and find someone better, or you up-level the relationship. Win-win.

Gervase: So true. Thank you for sharing your experience. What I keep hearing is waiting. Most modern women don’t have a great relationship with waiting—myself included. I’m a Projector in Human Design; our strategy is to wait for the invitation. For years I practiced: “Am I waiting? Being patient? Or pushing past my bandwidth?” In our modern world we’re primed for quick results and lightning shifts. I’m always reminding clients, family, myself: Nature is the guide. Some things take time. If you can accept that as the natural way, things shift when you least expect it.

Katarina: One hundred percent. And reframe “waiting” as not passive. You’re not just in a waiting room. It’s a process of learning and assimilating new information, embodying a new version of you, integrating, then up-leveling—bit by bit. Every challenge (relationship, business, health) invites you to learn, expand, integrate, upgrade. You can’t rush to the conclusion or you’ll miss the growth you need in order to hold the result. Think of winning the lottery—if you haven’t done the inner work to expand your capacity to hold money, appreciate it, and steward it, and you get a million dollars tomorrow, you’ll lose it. Better to take the slower route, do the work, get there, hold it, and compound it.

Gervase: Yes. One of my mentors, Jo Miller, says: “The slow way is the fast way.” It annoyed me at first, and now—through embodiment—I’m like, oh. If you take a fully formed flower and stick it in the ground: “See? Flower.” No, babe—you plant a seed, then wait. It looks like waiting, but it’s not passive. Things are happening in the dark. It takes time, roots grow, you water it, then it grows. That’s how you get your flowers; then they last. If you just stick a cut flower in the ground, it’s dead tomorrow. Respect the natural order of growth and evolution—humans as nature, not machines to quickly produce and multiply.

Can we talk childhood wounds? In my marriage, couples work has been such a beautiful investment. One thing that came up: bringing the unconscious to light. When I’m triggered and he’s triggered, we’re often projecting childhood wounds onto each other. It’s wild. For example: I was raised by a very control/discipline-oriented woman. Rushing is a trigger for me; I was rushed for 17 years. My husband loves order—he’s a Capricorn, spreadsheets. We once fought when I said, “We still have time,” and he said, “I hate being late. If I’m on time, I’m late. I need to be early.” I finally heard him: for him, being on time risks being late—and that’s so upsetting he gets grumpy. His childhood stuff is the opposite of mine. How do childhood wounds show up in relationships, and how do we use them for healing and “cleaning up our side of the fence”?

Katarina: Where to start! Honestly, the dating phase is unpacking your wounds and getting ready to even receive a relationship. Then you get the relationship and think, “I’ve arrived.” I did too—when I first got engaged I thought, “I made it through the wilderness.” Then commitment happened and all my stuff came up—worse. I’d done the mother wound, the father wound, plant medicine—“How is this all back?” I believe in romance you have to feel safe, vulnerable, and loved for your system to relax—and then your crap comes up. That’s why we have the power struggle phase. The honeymoon is hormones and rose-tinted glasses. You relax (which is good), and then your little wounds feel safe to come up and be addressed—“Mommy, Daddy, listen to me!”

Most of what happens in the power struggle (and beyond) is rooted in core wounds and conditioning. That’s how personality forms. High level: between zero and eight, your brain is a sponge; you’re mostly in theta (a light hypnotic state). You absorb everything and make it about you. If a parent comes home angry nightly because they hate their job, you make that anger about you. Children are egocentric; they form childlike conclusions: “I’m bad, not good enough, I did something wrong, I’m defective.” Repeated thoughts become the filter through which you see the world and yourself.

There are hundreds of millions (some say billions) of bits of data around us at any moment. Your filters decide what you take in. You and I take in different data based on our childhood conditioning. There’s no objective reality—only subjective. I had a multimillionaire client in a penthouse with a Ferrari who walked around saying, “No one wants me; the economy is terrible; there’s a recession,” (there’s always a recession with him). It was never enough—because he was never enough to himself. His perceptions impacted how he saw the world.

When you get into romance, those filters can hurt you; you and your partner see things differently, and maybe not accurately. Unaddressed stories and experiences that never got closure resurface. If you felt neglected as a child and never voiced it, it will show up in partnership. That’s a golden opportunity—assuming the dynamic is safe—to go inside, ask where it’s coming from, and revisit it (through modalities that work for you) so you stop seeing through an outdated lens. That’s what the power struggle is for. When people are arguing, can’t see eye to eye—“You did this; you did that”—I’m like: Great. Your stuff is up. Now you can examine it, do the inner work, get the therapist or coach, unpack and heal those broken stories, and see your partner, yourself, and your life more clearly and productively. Make sense?

Gervase: Totally. Thank you for the breakdown. It reminds me of something from our couples work: our coach would ask us to verbalize what we’d love the other to do instead of what they were doing. I can get cocky—“I’ve done the mother wound; I’ve been in therapy since 18; I have no blind spots”—so that question caught me. I was only pointing out what he was doing wrong, with “diagnostic evidence.” Being asked what I wanted instead—and finding it hard to answer—was humbling. It showed me I’d been stuck in a blaming, ruminating, better-than-thou mind. Practically, it became a pattern-breaker: I’d catch myself mid-speech, pause, and ask, “What do I want from him right now? How can I articulate that?” It changed our pattern. It also mirrors my work: less “Why is this happening?” and more “What resource is needed? What do you need to feel safe, resourced, supported, permitted, or to get a break right now?” How do you shape those questions for couples?

Katarina: You’ve hit something crucial: beneath every conflict is a need trying to get met. Your subconscious mind—whether you’re in a screaming match or brushing your teeth—is working to get needs met. In a fight, you might be seeking connection, validation, safety—whatever it is. The key is to drop beneath “what they’re not doing” into: What do I feel? Where is it coming from? What do I need to feel better? If we all pause to get clear on that—and even ask, “What might my partner need right now?”—nine times out of ten the argument stops and you’re back to a normal conversation.

And understand your needs will often differ from your partner’s. You might not understand their needs. They may seem irrational. That’s not your job—just like your needs aren’t theirs to judge. In a monogamous committed relationship, you do have a duty to try to help them meet their needs, but it’s not on you to decide right/wrong about those needs. I coached a couple who kept going, “He said… She said… you’re wrong.” I told them, “You’re both wrong; you’re both right.” The night before, at 10 p.m. (and honestly, any argument after 9 p.m.—good luck), my husband told me what hurt and what he needed. I remember thinking, “I literally don’t understand. I’m hurt.” My brain couldn’t compute. But it’s not up to me. That’s what he feels. So I had to give him what he needed—even though it took swallowing pride. The gold standard is moving from scarcity/competition (“I have to win, so you must be wrong”) to abundance/collaboration (“There’s enough to go around; we can both be right and both be wrong; they’re allowed to want what they want, and so am I”). No one has to lose here.

Gervase: That brings up the part of me that says, “I don’t have to.” I can choose to. Which, of course, I want to—because I love my people. What helps the stubborn teen in me is remembering I get to give what I want to receive. A lot of women have a confused relationship with giving and receiving—out of balance and highly conditioned. If I drop down, I remember I’m in a partnership where I also get to receive the thing I’m giving. That collaborative energy is missing in our culture; this right/wrong paradigm is hurting couples, families, everyone. How do you work with that?

Katarina: I actually think it is our job to give our partner certain things—if we’re in a marriage or chosen monogamous contract. That choice comes with a contract. You also get to break it; you have freedom. But the less we treat it as a burden to rebel against and more as a privilege and part of the contract, the better. If I make $3 million, I have a job to be responsible with it—to nurture and steward it. It would be sloppy to say, “I don’t feel like looking at it.” There’s a responsibility in caring for our partner’s heart. It’s a privilege—but it also means they have a responsibility to care for ours.

That night at 10 p.m., I wanted to sleep; I was crying and felt awful. But I came back to: here’s the man I’m devoted to. Even if he looks like a demon to me right now, he’s vulnerable and has needs. It’s my job to be as loving and caring as I can, even when it’s freaking hard. We need more of that duty to each other, to neighbors, to community. In Anglo-American cultures, we’re so individualistic—“I don’t want to do that.” Frankly, no one wants to do the hard thing, but if we all refuse, society frays. Humans progress with collaboration, community, generosity. Bring that to romance. I don’t know where we lost it (capitalism plays a role), but somewhere we did.

A few years ago at work in Vancouver, a colleague said she’d been to the weirdest wedding—very “conscious relationship.” The couple’s vows were basically, “I’ll look after me; you look after you; we’ll do our own thing and come together freely.” On the one hand, yes—be responsible for yourself. On the other, why get married? We’ve demonized responsibility for the other. You can do both: be fully responsible for yourself and for carrying your spouse’s heart. That’s a win-win relationship.

Gervase: So much comes up. With extended family and in-laws (already complicated with your own family, and now you add another!), I’ve landed here: me and you—and that gets to work. How do I honor extended family? “Responsibility” isn’t my favorite word (semantics), but I do feel a commitment to my in-laws because I love their son. It’s not my job to judge them or separate from them. I belong to this tribe. It’s messy and confronting and loving and supportive. The deeper I can be with the mess of those relationships, the more I grow. We all belong to each other in different ways. We have an unspoken contract. I could pretend it doesn’t exist, but by honoring my in-laws, I honor lineage—our children’s lineage. Americans, especially, have lost ties to ancestors, belonging, community. It’s easier to sit in isolated castles and be “right,” but your child is the grandchild of his parents. Are you going to chop that off at the root? How do you be with the mess of ancestry? That’s part of the work.

Katarina: As you’re saying that—same. My husband’s from Barbados; you look at that lineage and it’s slavery. He doesn’t know where he’s from—Latin America? Africa? There’s a generational memory gap from a horrific capitalist outcome. I’m half Russian—its own mess; family in Ukraine; family in Israel—more hot mess. I’ve lived in eight countries. It makes sense we’re all different; we all have different lineages. We are one global family on one home—this planet. There’s a range to the human experience.

In my academic career (during my master’s), I studied Anglo-American feminism. From my perspective it was “right.” When I lived in Dubai, I got passionate about emancipating women and tried a research project there. The women were like, “We don’t need emancipating. Go to Iraq.” Interesting. So I studied Russian women’s emancipation. After the Soviet Union collapsed in the 90s, many Anglo-American women came to “set you free,” but Russian women were like, “We had abortions—the state did lots of them. We don’t want more. We don’t want to have to work in the public sphere; we want a private life.” It challenged my assumptions. Then I looked at how other cultures view the Anglo-American landscape—Japanese feminism called American women barbaric for mutating bodies with plastic surgery/Botox and for grinding through menstruation without rest. Fascinating.

So there’s no single right/wrong (beyond fundamental liberal truths like peace, freedom, love, don’t kill, equality). In partnership, you do want enough value alignment—religion was a big issue with my ex—and cultural alignment on fundamentals. But there’s a range of humanity we have to accept. We’re learning what it is to be human—and how weird the world is.

Gervase: Of course you did casual feminist research in Dubai and then Oxford. A thread to land this: when you’re with people different from you—partner, extended family, strangers—ask: What is my intention? With Great Aunt Sue (my husband’s aunt) who lives a totally different existence, we share my husband. Sometimes that has to be enough. I’m not gaslighting anyone into toxic relationships; I’m talking about the imaginary Aunt Sue. What helps when it’s confronting is asking, “What do I want from this relationship? Why am I visiting? What do I need? What do we share?” It’s easy to focus on what we dislike or think is wrong. It’s harder to flex curiosity: “Huh, I wonder why they’re that way? What’s my intention here? Could I bring intention to this?” That question is more motivating and gets me through more than, “I have an obligation.” It applies everywhere.

Katarina: A hundred percent. I love: “For what purpose am I doing this?” For what purpose am I trying to prove I’m right? So I can be right? Maybe it’s enough to know my own opinion and belief system—and I don’t need others to agree. If it’s not enough, get curious about why. Often it comes back to the wound of not feeling enough.

Gervase: This has been lovely, as usual. Thank you for your insights and your really smart brain. Tell people how to find you and your work. I know you have a masterclass and a podcast—share everything so folks can keep in touch.

Katarina: First, find me on a patio with you for an afternoon—that’s what I want! But yes: my website is www.katerinapolonska.com—that’s K-A-T-A-R-I-N-A-P-O-L-O-N-S-K-A.com. You’ll find a link to my free 20-minute masterclass on the behavioral science of deciding whether to stay or go in your romantic relationship or your career. I’m very active on LinkedIn—posting twice a day with educational content—so come engage with me there (search “Katerina Polonska”). I’m also now on TikTok (a week ago I bit the bullet): @katerina.polonska. And on Instagram I’m @katerinapolonska. You’ll find me under my name across platforms. YouTube is where my podcast tends to be these days, and of course it’s on Spotify, Apple, and the rest.

Gervase: Amazing. We’ll put that in the show notes. Thank you for your time. I want to acknowledge you for being such a brilliant, curious, empathetic human—and for working so hard to make sense of this crazy mess called being human with other humans. It’s so hard. Thank you.